Proposal: exclude two judges from the sub-governance

Web&Design Subgovernance
#1

Type: Proposal

Motivation: After two contests, there was serious backlash from the community. As an initial member of the W&D subgovernance, I think we should listen to the community and support the reputation of Free TON contests as a fair and transparent instument of benefiting the Community as well as rewarding talented and hardworking professionals.

First topic:

Second:

After reading the topics, I propose the following:

Proposal:

Exclude judges (wallet addresses):
0:f12151702a867724414902a54630a621067ffd5388e6004c1dfda563f6fdab89
0:f79f801f65cb9f0b47748081ca167a8ded78910343e227746f588dfd8cb39109

From the Web & Design subgovernance.

Thank you!

24 Likes
#2

I agree with this proposal, as these jurors did not pay attention to the other initial members, jurors and members of the community, I think this will be a good lesson for them.

4 Likes
#3

Роман, доберите жури до полного комплекта, это хоть как то улучшит ситуацию с голосованием, а после каждого конкурса, пока не вышел Gov 2.0 предлагаю анализировать работу жури и только после этого подводить итоги конкурса

#4

We need to create alt juror comission :3

#5

Sorry, but how does this proposal works with the reputation of WD?

Is this a proposal for creating models of voting? Suggestions on how they might be conducted to avoid mistakes?

Presented links cover 2 completely different cases.

Video: strict voting with low average points per submission. The judgement is corrupt? How did you come to the conclusion? Yes, I did read the thread.

Cards: a mistake has been made. Yes, it was and been confirmed by the judge. Should we remove him basing on 1 mistake made? How does this prevent of making mistakes in the future? Are we going to remove 1 or more juries after each contest?

I’m not sure that this proposal works with the issue in general - perfecting the system. And it’s the main problem which should be addressed both by WD Team and the community.

#6

Are we at school to give someone lessons? Or our goal is to make the whole system better?

Again, I’m ok with removing/adding judges but there should be an understandable mechanism, set of ‘rules’. And this should work both ways - for the jury members and participants.

#7

Речь идет не о коррумпированности судей, а о неприемлемом судействе, о не корректных комментариях к оценкам участников, о не изучении оценок предыдущих жури, в целом о полной не компетентности и не состоятельности данных жури, как судей конкурсов по дизайну. Проводить конкурсы, с составом жури из 7 человек, где еще присутствуют некомпетентные судьи, вообще не разумно! Вам большой минус Михаил, вместо того что бы топить за этих судей, лучше бы приводили дела собгава в порядок решали насущные проблемы, а не вот это вот… Конечно, если вы их не видите, это уже другая проблема, лично я считаю, что ваш собгав нужно оставит и вас при нем, с учетом работы над ошибками, хотя ранее было и другое мнение.

2 Likes
#8

Well, how do we know that this particular judging is unacceptable?

Lets take the video case - points given by the jury member are ok within his point of view. It’s useless to argue. Comments are rude? Yes, they are. I won’t be posting our conversations here with him, but I did write him a message saying that there is no need to be rude, some words should be picked. Strict judging is ok, being rude is no good. Not fatal but not good.

But! Let me scroll back here and ask you to read the comments in video and cards’ threads. They are not rude, they are terribly aggressive. Some comments do deserve a ban on the forum and in the chat. Why is none saying that showing no respect to the jury is not the best way of running things?

If you ask me, I would be giving 1 points to the work of people who disrespect the jury. In the first message you hate and would like to PUNISH them all. Next message: here is my work, I won. Good? Terrible. Should we, as community, have some ground rules for all? YES.

You give me a ‘minus’ for not doing something. OK, it’s your choice. But, please, give me some pluses for tearing my ass apart for making things work. At least somehow. I’m trying my best, trust me. Is it enough? Doesn’t look that way (and I know that).

And you can address all the WD team - 23 people now but it’s only Mr. Kabanov who is evil.

1 Like
#9

Ну вот Михаил воспринимаете вы критику негативно, о плюсах не спорят и заслуги ни кто не отменял, но бывают минусы, которые перекрывают все плюсы и речь идет о ошибках не только ваших, а всей команды собгава, я говорю о том, что запускать конкурсы, которые некому судить, неправильно, говорю, что судей невменяемых нужно выгонять, и не нужно им объяснять - эй, друг ты так не разговаривай с конкурсантами а снег на бошка попадет (с). Зачем человек идет в судьи? Ответ - заработать быстро и легко. Ни какой ответственности за свою работу человек не несет, это факт. Вы, участники собгава, как ответственные лица за процессы протекающие в собгаве несете полную ответственность за то, что там происходит! И это подразумевает не только написать проползл на конкурс и запустить его в работу, но проконтролировать весь процесс начиная с набора необходимых судей, написания для них регламента, инструктажа (даже дворнику говорят где и как нужно подметать, строго в с 5 до 8 утра по не четным числам…) вменить ответственность и после оценок и проверить проделанную работу судей, если были нарушения то принять меры исходя по ранее установленным правилам. А вот это, - я поговорил с судьей, сказал что так делать не надо, а он обещал, что так делать больше не будет… у нас все хорошо… Михаил, мы что в детском саду? Так дела не делаются и работа организованна ужасно! Вас куча народа и кроме составления конкурсов вы больше ни чему не придаете значение! У каждой организации есть устав, есть регламент работ, четко прописаны должностное инструкции начиная с директора кончая техничкой, где прописана и ответственность за нарушение этих инструкций и без этого не одна организация работать не будет, факт! Начать надо было именно с этого! и не нужно говорить мне, такую хрень, типо это централизованный подход, а у нас децентрализация… ибо вы создали централизованную организацию в децентрализованном обществе с согласия этого общества, для проведения децентрализованных конкурсов с целью привлечения новых пользователей! с получением зарплаты в виде кристаллов за свою деятельность! и должны нести ответственность за свои действия перед сообществом, которое вам поверило и доверило заниматься этой работой.

Что касаемо сравнения комментариев жури при проверке конкурсных работ и комментариев участников на форуме в теме конкурса. Первое, жури получает зарплату, и должен нести ответственность за свои слова и действия (которой нет), а участник форума, не несет ни какой ответственности, он может высказывать свое мнение, может быть хейтером и провокатором, сторонним наблюдателем, не равнодушным к проекту. Если у вас работа собгава налажена правильно и к ней не может быть нареканий, можете игнорировать комментарии форума, что вы и делали долгое время, но идеального ни чего не бывает, иногда стоит и прослушиваться к некоторым из них, среди массы негатива, есть и обоснованные претензии. И самое главное, не нужно забывать, что это сообщество доверило вам и вашему коллективу организацию собгава, проведения конкурсов, начисления зарплат вам и выбранными вами судьям! С сообществом нужно считаться! прислушиваться! взаимодействовать при необходимости, тогда это больше будет походить на децентрализацию и не будет столько претензий. Вообще Михаил, мое мнение, как стороннего наблюдателя, вы и ваши коллеги немного забыли или недопонимание, что, для чего, для кого делайте и долгое время игнорировали мнение сообщества, а отсюда и проблемы со всеми вытекающими… Исправляйте ситуацию

5 Likes
#10

I agree, exclude two judges from the sub-governance, this caused a sharp negative reaction and distrust to the competitions

3 Likes
#11

We need to exclude those jurors because collusions contradict DOD.

2 Likes
#12

I didn’t say that the judges are corrupt (they may or may not be), but their judging was very far off what the community expects it to be.

Video contest: the juror was not just strict - he was too strict and and too rude to almost all of the competitors, showing clear disrespect. He may be a qualified person in the design field, but in terms of judging and communication with the community it was just unprofessional.

Cards contest: again, the juror was giving 1 points left and right without even bothering to write a comprehensive comment. Even if it was a mistake, it was not the first contest of the sub-gov, and if the juror did not bother to try to understand how the sub-governance (where he is an initial member) works in the slightest bit, it is very, very unprofessional.

Nothing personal, but this was just uncool behavior in my opinion.

3 Likes
#13

Hi guys!

This is Alex who has made a mistake in voting in the cards’ contest.
I’m a bit surprised to see this proposal without any discussion within the WD team. But, of course, everybody can roll out what they think is best.

As for the points I’ve given, well, due to lack of experience in voting - this is just a 2nd contest within the WD Subgov and the first which I voted from top to bottom. I had a model in mind that good works are 4-10 points while 10 is generally unreachable in my view, it should be a masterpiece. So, this is basically explains that there are lots of marks 1-3 as it’s my humble opinion that the works should be better to get a higher score.

I did admit in chats that I’ve used a wrong model, and I do feel sorry for the misunderstanding. As I’m not a very public guy, I don’t visit the forum or chats that often. Now it is clear that part of being jury is to make public appearances constantly. Point take, will do.

As for the comments – majority of submissions just have no point of discussion or commenting. They are to simple. Again – it’s my opinion, all the jury members have theirs. There is a system discussed for more clear voting and commenting. Hopefully, we will come up with something that will work. At this point, it’s not as good as we’d like to. If someone saw my comments as rude, I do apologize – that was not my intention at all.

Summing up: I’m ok with the idea of leaving the subgov if the community thinks so and initial members vote as well. But, as it was previously stated, we need a mechanism of jury work, community feedback, a system, where the communications are understandable and are respected by all parties involved.

2 Likes
#14

At this point, there is only one strict rule - if jury members, his team or affiliated people are taking part in the contest, this jury member has to abstain. This is true, right?

Again, what is the model of excluding people from the jury? Is there any list of things that can’t be done, the number of systematic mistakes in a row or a timeframe? There is no such a system. But it should be - that’s totally true.

#15

More childish excuses I have not heard. :see_no_evil:

You should not leave w & d, since this thieves’ w & d subgov should be completely disbanded. :-1: :-1: :-1:

3 Likes
#16

Well, as far as this thread is about me too I have something to say.

First of all I do not see any objective reason to exclude me from jury and here is why:

  1. I am a professional graphic designer with 15+ years of experience and art education.I was invited to W&D Subgov to JUDGE works on contests. To JUDGE, but not to care about someone feelings. To raise the professional bar of visual communication of Free TON.

  2. All contests in the world are about winners and losers. Normally there are about 3 winners and all other participants loose. Normally losers don’t receive any comments from jury, they just loose and then they try harder, promote their work better, participate in next contest and win or not. That’s how contests work in real world.

  3. My comments were not rude, maybe a little too sharp — yes, but not rude. Comment field is short so I had to say what I thought in a few words and that what I did. I watched every single video and wrote unique comment for each. Nevertheless I’m sorry if I hurt someone feelings. I was just trying to be as short and informative as possible.

Next…
Some people say “This is not a contest for professional designers”. Well, then what is it? Should Free TON look not professional? Should other people see Free TON as unprofessional network? Should everyone be rewarded just for the fact of submission?

Professional look and feeling VS crystals for everyone. What is better?
I choose professionalism. There will always be unsatisfied people thinking their work is the best. And that’s what professional jury is for. To judge, to select the best out of hundreds. That is the best for the network. That makes it interesting for others. That attracts new members.

PS
And by the way I participated NY Card contest and received 1pts from Alex as well. I know him as a professional and if he thinks my work doesn’t deserve more points that’s ok for me. I will not cry because it’s a contest and Alex is a jury member, and if somebody invited him to judge I just accept the rules of this game.

Thanks. Have a nice day.

#17

Better to separate the proposals, please find the new ones below

#18

Name: Exclude @lelique from the W&D sub-governance

Type: Proposal

Motivation: After two contests, there was serious backlash from the community. As an initial member of the W&D sub-governance, I think we should listen to the community and support the reputation of Free TON contests as a fair and transparent instrument of benefiting the Community as well as rewarding talented and hardworking professionals.

Topic:

After reading the topic, I propose the following:

Proposal:

Exclude judge (wallet addresses):
0:f12151702a867724414902a54630a621067ffd5388e6004c1dfda563f6fdab89

From the Web & Design subgovernance.

Thank you!

2 Likes
#19

Name: Exclude @pastor_tsong from the W&D sub-governance

Type: Proposal

Motivation: After two contests, there was serious backlash from the community. As an initial member of the W&D subgovernance, I think we should listen to the community and support the reputation of Free TON contests as a fair and transparent instrument of benefiting the Community as well as rewarding talented and hardworking professionals.

Topic:

After reading the topic, I propose the following:

Proposal:

Exclude judges(wallet addresses):
0:f79f801f65cb9f0b47748081ca167a8ded78910343e227746f588dfd8cb39109

From the Web & Design subgovernance.

Thank you!

3 Likes
#20

Much better! Changes everyting.